I Could Just Scream

On Monday, July 29^th  I gave a presentation to the Michigan bowling proprietors at their summer convention in Mt Pleasant MI; this well attended event was held at the Soaring Eagle casino

I titled my presentation “Get a New Plan, Stan" because I felt that we had been planning for fall leagues the same way for over 50 years and perhaps, just maybe there was another way to do it.

While I won’t give you the whole presentation in this blog, I want to make one point that may turn your head around and get you to thinking about Fall League bowling marketing in a different light.

Suppose that, instead of being in the bowling business, you were in the widget making business and each widget you made you sold for $500.  Last year, you sold 1,000 widgets and your company, which makes other products as well, therefore had revenue of $500,000 just from this one product.

This year, you are charged with producing 1100 visits. The Board of Directors wants a 10% sales increase so they can take the company public.  You are at the Board meeting when they tell you this and then one of the Board members pipes up and asks what you think it will cost, from a marketing perspective, to get to 600 widgets?

I explained this scenario to the bowling proprietors in the room and they were pretty much silent. One gentleman said $10,000. Others said $15,000.  Someone even mumbled something about $20,000.

Now when I asked them how much they currently spend to sell 1000 of their $500 widgets (league bowlers), they were virtually silent. No one in the room spent more than $2500 with the vast majority spending NOTHING!!

Can you imagine that to protect our sacred base of league bowlers, the majority of proprietors said they spend nothing? Now I don’t want to sound like I’m picking on the Michigan guys ‘cause I’m not. I guarantee you this is true in every state of the nation – and I know because I have been in every state, over 1,000 centers, and Michigan was just the most recent example.

Why do we invest so little in selling our product? Do we not have faith in the product? Do we not have confidence in our ability to market it successfully or have “we always done it that way.  Perhaps the real reason there are less bowlers is because NOBODY PROMOTED LEAGUE BOWLING IN THE FALL.

Even with our employees, we are frugal. “Here’s a dollar a bowler”, we say. Are You Kidding? That bowler widget is worth $500 in revenue to you and you’re going to give someone a dollar to bust their buns for you. Why should they?  Some of you don’t even call your league bowlers back, but still leave it to the league secretaries who have NO vested interest in paying your mortgage. 

 Some don’t even send out direct mail, but instead send out emails. Hey, knock; knock less than 12% of your emails ever get opened.  You have to take massive action, direct mail, email, telemarketing, robo calls, targeted communications about leagues to specific segments, outside sales, REAL incentives for league bowlers and employees to bring a friend or get a sign up respectively!

You have to use all the tools you can find; not just sit back and wait for the league secretary to tell you how YOUR BUSINESS is doing.

C’mon man. Get in the game and spend some money to protect and grow one of the biggest parts of your business.  Because the way things are going (about 2mm league bowlers down from 10mm); you’re almost at the bottom of the barrel.

I guess my back is hurting more than I thought tonight so that’s my rant for July 31, 2013.

Does a Product Have To Solve a Problem?

I have been taught, and you probably have as well, that marketing discipline rule #101 says that a product, in order to be successful, must solve a problem.  For instance, it must make our life easier (the automobile vs. the horse); more convenient (the grocery store under my apartment building in NYC, especially during those nasty NYC winters); or it must male our life better(electric lights vs. gas lamps).

In the bowling business, we can count the automatic scorer as solving the problem of absent pin boys – or in some cases- pin boys that were slightly hung-over; the automatic bumper that helped kids to enjoy the game more as well as cosmic lights that added an element of excitement and color to the bowling experience.

But what about bowling leagues or open play.  The purists among us would say, “You don’t have to add anything to bowling leagues, no Visiballs, NASCAR jackets, or vacations, just the joy of bowling and scoring.”  And they may be right. 

Non traditionalists would say that bowling needs to offer premiums like this and to offer shorter season or every other week leagues or even once a month leagues. And they may be right too.

The fact is your product, whether it be Pizza Pins N Pop, Cosmic Bowling, Price Specials or premiums for frequency, must appeal to the six emotions we all feel in some way or the other. Happiness, Sadness, Surprise, Fear, Disgust and Anger.  

Both of the aforementioned products make people happy that they saved money on a “deal” as well as feeling “cool” that they are into a whole music and light show (just like the concerts they love), respectively.  

Note:  Have you ever combined both and seen the result?  its amazing to see, especially when targeted to two specific audiences at two different times (families with kids under 12 and 15 to 34 yr olds).

Birthday parties in bowling centers are so successful because they make Moms life easier, are more convenient than having a party at home and solve the problem of where to host little Susie’s party. From the child’s stand point, it makes the child happy and offers elements of good surprises.  It is no doubt the industry’s most successful product followed only by company parties which hit the same hot buttons.  

No doubt these two products have been increasing in “consumer value” and participation in centers across the country while league bowling in its traditional form has been declining.

So if you want to continue growing, check your league and open play product’s temperature. Does it make people happy to do it?  Are they surprised that they can get a value after the league is over? Or are they angry about what they perceive as the high price and do they fear looking silly because they don’t know how to bowl in front of their friends?

What emotions are your products stirring up? What problems do they solve?  If they are only solving the “save money” problem, maybe you need to teach that one trick pony another few tricks to appeal to a broader audience.

Here’s one exercise you can focus on.  What can you do to make your audience feel “cooler”?  Seems that’s a universal want these days. Ask your teenage workers, your twenty some sons and daughters, they’ll tell you what’s cool and what’s not… straight up.

The answers are right in front of you.

The Re-Configuration Strategy

This is the time of the year that almost all of my clients are into taking massive action to get their leagues on the floor. from calling back league officers, secretaries, to holding league officer meetings, to working with their consumer and business sales organizations to conducting special events to bring in league bowlers, dropouts and their friends as well a people who have expressed interest in league bowling.

In fact, next week I am going to be talking about this process at the Michigan convention, but today I just want to focus on a strategy called “Co-Registration” which is but one part of our overall League Marketing Plan.

Today, you are more of a publisher than you are a marketer.  Think about how many emails, Facebook posts, newsletters and other materials you are witting today as compared to just 3 to 5 years ago. I am sure it is a big change. 

That’s why to help you build your email list, helping to get more foot traffic and helping to generate a selling situation, co registering a local charity and combining it with a mega event at your center is a great way to build your brand; not to mention to get more people selling your product(s)

Coca Cola, the number one brand in the world, spends millions making sure their brand is recognized.  Of course as the number one recognized brand in the world, you would ask why they have to do this. Simply stated; because if they didn't their competition will. 

Today I saw a co registration that CVS is investing in with “Back Pack America”©, a not for profit organization that endeavors to provide back packs for kids from underprivileged households.

 CVS has taken on, at least in my market, a major Cable TV campaign and Newspaper campaign and social marketing campaign to get families who are planning to buy their children a new back pack to donate their old back packs by dropping them off at a CVS store.

Why would CVS do this?

For several reasons:

1.    It builds their brand by aligning themselves with an organization that helps kids

2.    It  builds traffic, ‘hey lets drop off this back pack, and while I’m there I’ll pick up a few things

3. CVS sells back packs too… and school supplies as well as many, many products that have a

highly intrinsic “impulse buy quality.”                 Target© stores, too, have a similar strategy.  Its called Feed USA + Target.  When consumers buy specific products, Target© will give meals to families across the countries free. Advertisements show what products you can buy and how many meals it represents. Obviously the more expensive he product, the more meals you donate.

 Why would Target do this??

 See 1,2, and 3 above. And you can add one other reason. It gives Target© a discernible point of differentiation as to why you should buy at Target© vs. other stores, especially during this “back to school season.”

 For those consumers, and Target© must have done their research on this one, who are concerned about homelessness, poverty, unemployment and other society ills, it becomes a great way for consumers to “rationalize their purchases at Target© or to spend a little more than they planned. A lot of “little mores” add up to a whole lot of “lots more” on their income statement.

So perhaps in conjunction with any traffic driver you are planning to do, maybe there is a local charity in your market that you can “co register” a program.

You will get more traffic. You will get more emails and more importantly, you will begin to change the still existing culture of “ye olde bowling alley” to “family friendly, community involved bowling center.”

 And if you think its too late for this September, well, there are eleven (11) other months of opportunity. 

As always, just give me a call if you want to discuss this with me.

Are You Kidding Me?

Five days of Sahara type heat with indexes of 110 and I’m about done; well- done that is. So I went into a car dealership just to look around and get cool and before being pounced upon by eager sales people, I watched as a sales guy slowly worked over this younger couple with gobbledygook about finance charges, insurance and warranties (which all add costs to the purchase and commissions in his pocket) for about 20 minutes.

I could see that he thought he had them closed when the woman suddenly interrupted and said, “I really didn't understand most of what you were talking about so I guess we’ll just take it home, read the materials and come back later this week.  Ain’t gonna happen. You know it and I know it.

Bang, the guy worked his butt off and lost the sale. There was no chance they were coming back.  He looked surprised so I walked up to him and I said, “Hey man, its just TMI.”

He looked at me and said, “Huh?”  “Yeah TMI” I said, “Too Much Information. You gave that person too much information, confused them, got them lost and took them out of their comfort zone and that’s why they left.”  He was scratching his head when I turned and left too.  Maybe he’ll think about it when the next prospect walks in. Maybe.

And then it hit me.I wonder how much information we give customers who call on the phone. Do we give them too much information or not enough information? 

So I got back in the SAAB and drove over to the park, punched down the windows and started calling some bowling centers in the area.

I called to ask about Birthday parties.  Would you believe that five out of five centers just started telling me about the two, three or four packages they had without even pausing for breath or asking if I had any questions!  When they finally finished (after about 5 minutes, I simply said OK, thanks.

Their response? “Sure no problem. Bye.”  

Are you kidding me?  

These guys never asked me even ONE qualifying question such as:

·         What is your child’s name?

·         How old will he/she be

·         Has he/she ever had a bowling birthday party

·         When would you like to have the party? (day, date and time)

·         How many friends do you anticipate being at the party/

·         Do you have a budget in mind?

·         Will you be bringing your own cake?

If you don’t qualify the prospect, you’ll be giving people information they may not want or even care about. So if you ask the right questions you will then have the information (wants, needs) they think is important. You can now more effectively guide the person on the other end of the line to the kind of birthday party that more specifically meets her needs?

And isn't that what marketing is all about?

5 Cures For The Summertime Blues

For some small businesses, the summer is the busiest time of year. For others, like bowling proprietors, it’s the slow season. Regardless of what time of year it is for you, there are things all small business owners can do this summer to be proactive and productive.

And whether you’re taking advantage of the extra foot traffic in your center or a quiet space in time to reflect and think about your future goals, these tips can help you make the most out of the next few months.

Tomorrow’s success really does start today, so it’s important that no matter what season you’re in, you are thinking ahead and getting ready.

Here’s a list of our top five tips we compiled from our marketing network. we had lots more, but we think these are the most appropriate for the bowling proprietor

Tip 1: Snap away

“Take or collect fun pictures of your customers or members enjoying the summer weather. Then, share those pictures on your social networks during the cold days of winter to give them something to remember fondly of or look forward to.

You’ll have fun doing it and create some great engagement with your loyal followers.”

- Dennis Nations, Senior Content Strategist

Tip 2: Discover something new

“Take advantage of the potentially slower summer months and try out one of the ‘hot’ visual social media platforms like Instagram, Vine or Pinterest. Set a reasonable goal for yourself (i.e. upload 2 new photos a week) then, in September, decide if you want to continue to grow your presence on that channel. 

You could also experiment with a new type of social media post. Consider trying a Facebook quiz/trivia question, a caption contest, an ‘if you could…’ question or feature a customer story.

 Definitely change your Facebook cover photo to an image that reflects summer and your brand too!”

- Danielle Cormier, Corporate Community Manager

Tip 3: Boost your website and deals

“When adding an email sign-up to your website, be sure to have the “Join My Mailing List” feature at or near the top of each page of your website.

When doing an offer through SaveLocal, or any other local couponing service,  don’t discount too deeply and set a limit to the total number of deals that could be bought. For Smart Coupons, limit the total number that can be claimed.”

- Justin Tryon, Education Development Specialist

Tip 4: Grow your list

“Summer is a great time to grow your email list, especially if the summer months are the busiest of the year. Something as simple as a paper sign-up sheet can go a long way in helping you stay in touch with people after they visit your center, eat at your restaurant, or drink come into your office.

It’s also a great chance for you to personalize your sign-up experience a little more than you may have in the past. In addition to asking for their name and email address, you could also ask for their hometown to find out whether or not your new contacts are local or discovered your business while on vacation. You can use that information to better target your messages throughout the entire year.”

- Ryan Pinkham, Content Developer

Tip 5: Take advantage of Yelp

“People rely on Yelp reviews and trust them just as they would a personal recommendation. This summer, take advantage of Yelp, especially if these next few months are busy.

Setup a Yelp page and then simply put a sign near your cash register that gives customers a discount if they write a Yelp review for your business on the spot.

This is a great way to boost your visibility on Yelp in just a few short months.”

- Leanne Kennis, Content Editor/Writer

Please keep these 5 tips in mind this summer and you’ll create more opportunities to reach new customers, continue to engage existing customers, and just have a little extra fun!

MInd Changes

If marketing is about changing people’s attitudes, perceptions and ultimately buying behavior it stands to reason that in order to be effective, the first question, as  marketers, we have to ask is:

Whose Mind Do We Really Want To Change?  

Is it the open play bowler to get him or her to increase frequency of visits?  Is it a 12 year old league bowler that we want to come back next year?  Is it Sylvia Smith who runs the daycare center down the street?

If you can’t be really specific and can only tell me 18 to 34 yr olds, then you have already started the process at a disadvantage. 

Tell me more information like:

is it 18 to 34 yr olds  with a median income of $_______+ who work in gray collar jobs, who are predominantly single, who go out three to four nights a week to drink, meet ,members of the opposite sex and share one trait in common, to have fun, fun, fun every night.”  And finally is there definition of fun about hooking up, getting drunk or just hanging out with their friends?

“Well jeez Fred”, I hear you saying, “How am I supposed to know that?”

My answer to that is, “You Ask Them.”  

You ask different questions, try different offers, measure and categorize who responded.  Find out what they do for a living, find out what other activities they like to do. You can also test different offers and measure results against your existing data base,  but you have to be really understand analysis and measurement techniques here, so you may need some professional help

“Who has the time for that?” I hear you saying.  

And I say…”people who have to learn about the new marketing who want to be successful.”

When mass media was king we could saturate the airwaves and target, you guessed it, “EVERYBODY” which was really no target at all.  But now you have as much power in your 140 character twitter account as IBM or Procter & Gamble or McDonald's to get your message to the specific person you want.

Think about that.  Doesn't that blow your mind?

YOUR 8, 12 or 16 lane center in rural Nebraska has as much power to communicate in 140 characters as any Fortune 100 company but you need information to make valuable decisions, not some BS idea that "sounds good."

OK, if you can get past the “WHO” question, you now have to answer questions like:

1.   What does this person think about bowling now?

2.  What does he think he wants from bowling?  

3.  What do we want him to think about bowling

a.   what action do we want him to take

                               i.   do we  want him to take that action now or to wait

                             ii.   is there a sense of urgency

                            iii.   sometimes its not even to buy something, but rather to become a member of an exclusive club

                            iv.   to get more information

b.  Maybe its nothing, now what?

4.  What does he really want from bowling?

a.   Maybe its nothing, now what?

5.  Are there any stories, programs that have motivated this person in the past?

6.  Who are his heroes? 

a.   Aaron Rodgers, JZ, Willie Nelson, Nelson Mandela, Adele, LeBron James, 

b.  Who does this person look up to and WHY?

7.  What is this person's relationship with money??

a.   Does he have discretionary money that he freely spends every night and is he an ATM junkie

b.  Is he a tightwad that doesn't spend unless he absolutely has to?

Once you get the answers to these questions, you can design a program that matches the information you have and be way more efficient in your conversion process than you ever thought possible.

If you’re serious about wanting to do this, give me a call and I will help get you started, give you some time on the phone and then have at it…no selling here, I'll just give you some friendly helpful hints. 

But if you want me to really help, we will (We're not opposed to being hired :)

Or you can ignore this process and just do what YOU THINK the customer, prospect, former customer wants.

"And you may be right or you may be crazy"  said Billy Joel

Because I'm The Boss That's Why

All too often I hear entrepreneurs complain about their employees and then tell me that they often tell employees what to do and when the employees ask why they should do the specific task that the boss requested, they get an answer like, "Because I’m the boss that’s why".

In today’s environment and in hiring Gen Y and Gen Z, answers like the aforementioned don’t resonate well and in fact do nothing more than to get the employee looking for another job…pronto.

Sometimes the boss can be technically right, but management wrong.  As the boss you may be able to debate a viewpoint from many angles and because you’re the boss you could force someone into accepting your viewpoint. What happens when you do that?

Very simply the employee begins to spiral into a place where they’re not really working to solve problems, but working to avoid your wrath. so you won the technical battle, but long term, you lost a potentially good employee who is now so demoralized that he or she is no longer an asset for solving problems, but a mere sycophant to what you say.  Congratulations. You have created a robot.

So one of the first things a good manager has to learn (or should I say a manager has to learn in order to be good) is to increase motivation for your team to solve problems WITHOUT any fear of the consequences of their ideas, suggestions or recommendations.

As the manager, you can either build cultures that are highly collaborative and work together or you can create cultures where you have a lot of paralysis and its very difficult to make a decision.

The one time that you have a chance to change the culture is in the hiring process because as the manager you can hire a potential robot or hire someone with “clarity and creativity”

What do I mean by Clarity?

When you are building a business or just trying to get an existing business to perform better, there are so many things you can do, so many paths you can take and so many avenues you can go down that you want people who have the ability to dial out the noise and find the “signal” that the group believes it should be following. 

Without the ability of everyone on the team to believe in and follow the signal, you will end up managing a “co-op board” where everybody wants “their way.”

What do I mean by Creativity?

There are a lot more problems to fix today than ever. The newly hired employee has to be able to come to you with a clear understanding of the problems (clarity) and then offer up three or four creative solutions; suggesting one for  reasons he believes in because the facts bear him out.  

If that employee is told that his ideas are stupid or that he doesn't know the business well enough, then say goodbye to that employee forever and say good bye to your idea of creativity.

I have sat in too many meetings where the Boss asks his team what they would do about a particular problem and they all clam up.  Finally I have to jump into it and start a brainstorming session with an idea and then ask people to build upon including the boss. As soon as the boss indicates that any idea is stupid, we take a time out and I go have a “heartsy” with the boss.  

Sometimes I get him to understand and sometimes I get an “I don’t understand. If it’s a stupid idea, why can’t I say it”?   “Because its not the final idea; maybe something beautiful will grow out of it. Why not give it a chance?

Then back into the meeting room for round two and I tell the boss that his job is to keep encouraging them to redefine the solution. How will it work? Who will do it?  When can it get done and how much do they think it will cost?

If I can get them going on this stream of thought, I know we will have a good solution(s) for the problem.  If I can’t, well, its back to “Because I’m The Boss That’s Why.”

And now the only problem left to decide is when will the business be put up for sale and for how much?

Its your choice. 

I know what I would do

Working ON The Business Vs. Working IN The Business

You’re like me, right? 

You own your own business; maybe even two or three. So you get up early to check on what happened last night? What was the business like? What problems or issues came up? Who called in sick? Did the money get to the bank?

Eventually you get so caught up IN the business that you have NO time to work ON the business.  Oh you still have time to BS, complain and maybe even moan and groan…and rush to sure up a program because its fallen off a bit.  Feel like a guy with too few thumbs and too many holes in your dike?

Sure you do.

That’s why I have decided that one Sunday a month; usually the second one cause I can get to look back on the previous month (as well as make sure that some external data I need is available) , I take a two or three hour time out.  (If you go to church on Sunday, then do this on Saturday.) 

During This Time Out I Review Five Key Areas:

1.   Sales

2.  Competition

3.  External Forces

4.  Test New Ideas

5.  Process

SALES: 

Can I spot any trends in my sales by program, by day, by time, by shift?  Has there been a change in food or beverage product sales? 

What’s different over the last month compared to last year same month, previous one or two months and by cycle?

Now the one piece of data you MUST have, to do this analysis is you must know the number of games bowled.  Too, too many of you do not track games.  You cannot, absolutely cannot understand your business today if you do not have that number. It is the “hub of all analysis. If you don’t have that number how can you measure your per line rate for open play, league play, food, beverage, shoes.

With this information you now have a global perspective of my sales as well as a macro view because you have drilled down pretty far to find out what is working and what isn’t working.

   

If you just have the dollars and you raised your price over last year, then your price increase could be hiding a lineage drop.  How would you know?

COMPETITION:

I like to get sales data for my metro area (city, town, etc) on entertainment and leisure dollars spent in the previous month.

You can Google this information or you can get it from the local chamber of commerce.  I like to see if more dollars were spent that month or less and if restaurants, movies etc reported more dollars or less dollars spent than the previous month or compared to the same month last year.

It may take you a little time to find this, but wouldn’t you like to know why your “entertainment business is off while other entertainment businesses are up?

I also like to visit other bowling centers. (I usually do this after my mid-morning bagel and coffee run).

I check what new things they are doing? What does their website look like; what new social media things have they done on Facebook, You Tube, Pinterest etc.

Is there anything they are doing that I can learn from?  Then I check out some of my proprietor friends who I know are good operators in other states and see what they are doing. 

More information yields more analysis which equals more new ideas or improvement on existing ideas.

TEST 1-2-3

Now I have  lots of new information; maybe when I look at my website home page I can use this information to test some new ideas; maybe put something new on my home page; get a new landing page; and test some new offers. 

PROCESS  

I try to pick one process that will hopefully move the sales needle; maybe its customer service.  I write down what I think are the 4 or 5 most frequently asked questions we get on a phone call and then draft a response for everyone to use when those types of calls come in. 

Frequent questions might be things like:

·         Do you have any specials?

·         Are there available lanes?

·         Can you give me information about birthday parties?

·         When does your cosmic bowling start?

·         Can you tell me about accompany party/group outing or family reunion program?

After writing down the answers I remind myself to meet with the staff and see if they have other questions that are more frequent than the ones I wrote down. We then go over the answers and agree that we will answer the questions according to the “script”.  I then tell the staff that I will have friends test the program by calling the center, not to catch them doing something bad, but to give them feedback on how to improve on future calls.

By the time I’m finished its football time and I can settle back in my recliner knowing that I have spent 3 or 4 solid hours working ON my business and not IN it.

It’s a great feeling.

All of these things are so important for your business to grow…so set aside a Sunday or Saturday once a month and “get ‘er done.”

Your Car Goes Where Your Eyes Go.

Years ago, when I got my first SAAB AERO, a more sports driven, higher HP, more torque, tighter suspension and Brembo brakes oriented 9-5, I was invited to a racing school in Roswell Georgia to learn how to master the new “AERO”.  

Considering that it was FREE, because of my purchase, it seemed like a cool thing to do for a weekend.  So off I went, with Marie by my side, to experience the world of high performance driving, even for a short 48 hours.

After some class room time, we were all excited to get out on the course and put our new skills to the test; to see who among us was a “race driver.”  Obviously none of us were quite ready to proclaim ourselves “high performance drivers; at least not to the Scandinavian driving crew that had been assembled as our instructors.  

As we crashed into cones, spun our cars out, failed the water test and ended up on the infield more often than not, it seemed that we had a lot to learn.  In fact so much to learn that we all realized that the best we could do was to improve our daily driving skills. At best.

By the end of the first day, I was in 11^th place out of 19 of us. At the cocktail hour that night, I strolled over to one of the instructors, introduced myself and asked him what I would need to do to improve.  Ah yes, “I have seen you drive and among other skills you need to improve, you have one MAJOR flaw that you need to overcome. “Yes, yes” I said excitedly, “what is it?”

“Do you understand that you car goes where your eyes go?"

So if you look at the car that you want to avoid in a crash, you will crash into it. If you look at the cones that you want to avoid in the slalom, you will hit them.  Look at where you want your car to go, not at what you want to avoid.”  With that said, he said good night and walked away.

All thru dinner and all that night, I thought about what he said, determined to try it the next day.

And try I did. 

This should be easy, I thought, all I have to do is look at where I want to go, not to where I want to avoid.  But a lifetime of driving habits aren't that easy to fix, but I kept at in my trial runs and about an hour before lunch, it was my turn to do the slalom. So far 14 people went ahead of me and the fastest time turned in was about 37 MPH. 

I slammed the accelerator and started looking at the spaces between the cones…and not the cones.  I felt more in control, more at ease, more flexible with my hands spinning the steering wheel and felt like I did better than my 35 MPH yesterday with 4 cones down. 

After this run, I did 41 MPH with no cones down and won the event.  Later that day, I improved in almost all of the school requirements and ended up finishing 5^th overall.

Now with the fall bowling season upon us, are you pointing your business at where you want to go or are you looking at what you are trying to avoid?